Interview with József Kajdi – Episode 9

The next major issue for which the Antal government was regularly attacked was foreign policy. While I must say that if there was one area in which the Antal government was very successful, it was foreign affairs, although my personal opinion is that if we look at the circumstances, if we take a realistic view, then we can say that the Antall government made achievements in all areas. However, the fact is that the most visible results were achieved in foreign policy, it is another question whether the Hungarian public was aware of this or simply did not consider it important. What do I mean by this? I would just like to list a few facts, and I think everyone can decide for themselves whether these are really merits or not.

On the initiative of József Antall, the Warsaw Treaty was abolished. I have recounted the story behind this, which is truly a charming one, and as I mentioned in the film Blokád, I would have preferred to film the scene where he reads out the rejected Hungarian proposal from the two draft resolutions, which essentially marks the beginning of the process of terminating the Warsaw Treaty. On Hungary’s initiative, the KGST, the Organization for Economic Cooperation among Socialist Countries, was dissolved in 1991.

On the initiative of József Antall and Italy and Hungary, the Pentagonnale was first established, with Italy, Austria, Yugoslavia, but also two former members of the Warsaw Pact, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, and on Hungarian initiative, Poland also became a member later, at which point the organization was renamed the Hexagonalle. During Antall’s term in office, we became an associate member of the Council of Europe and the European Community. Furthermore, also on Hungary’s initiative, a series of friendship and cooperation agreements were signed with neighboring countries, which essentially regulated our relations with the countries surrounding us, and these agreements naturally placed great emphasis on guaranteeing the rights of the Hungarian minorities living in those countries.

But while we are on this subject, I must also mention the Hungarian-Ukrainian Basic Treaty, because, interestingly, this is the only treaty of this category in Hungarian domestic politics that has caused a huge storm, and strangely enough, mostly within the government coalition. This is because it contains a passage, a sentence stating that “we renounce all territorial claims forever.” It does not say this literally, but this is essentially the meaning of the sentence, which was called out for being unpatriotic, treasonous, and various other adjectives that were used to describe the Antal government at the time.

After all, false information had already spread at that time, which is still being repeated today, from time to time, that during that period, at the time of Ukraine’s formation, Transcarpathia was offered back to Hungary. I would like to state categorically that this is simply not true, that it has no basis in reality, but of course this is still being trumpeted, not so long ago by a journalist from the Magyar Nemzet (Hungarian Nation) newspaper, who cited very serious, credible sources and even named three people as his sources: István Csurka, Zoltán Bíró, and Ernő Raffay.

Csurka is no longer with us, so it is difficult to ask him about this, but the other two gentlemen are still alive. Zoltán Bíró, whom I mentioned earlier, was the first executive chairman of the MDF, essentially from the moment József Antall joined the MDF, and he became the first real president of the MDF elected by the general assembly, in his eyes József Antall was a hated person, if only because he did not allow the MDF to operate behind Pozsgay as a background movement, but organized it as an independent, essentially a liberal-minded conservative party, a completely modern European party, and for this very reason, József Antall is still not a positive figure for Zoltán Bíró to this day. But this is about the same kind of belief and the same false and readily accepted slander as the Rózsadomb Pact. Perhaps this is familiar to some people, because it is constantly being repeated in public that in the summer of 1989, with the secret services present, a pact was made at Rózsadomb, the essence of which was that Pozsgay would become President of the Republic and József Antall would become prime minister.

Now, if we think about it a little more soberly, there has not even been an election yet, so how could the roles have been divided up in this way? Pozsgay still had a chance of becoming president, but then the four-option referendum decided against that. But the idea that József Antall would become prime minister was clearly a complete illusion in the summer of 1989. I mentioned that during the roundtable talks, the opposition representatives were still working on the assumption that the MSZMP would win the elections held in the spring of 1990, and at that time it was not yet known that it would be transformed into the MSZP, there were 850,000 party members, families, supporters behind them.

So victory was guaranteed for them. Therefore, I do not wish to dwell on this refutation any further, as it is clear that no such offer was made, but I would like to mention, as a result of this foreign policy that on December 6, 1991, – and this was, interestingly, not really reported in the Hungarian press, – the prime minister signed three basic treaties in one day.

First, he signed the basic treaty with Gorbachev and the Soviets in Moscow. He then went to another room, where he signed the basic treaty with Yeltsin, representing the Russians, and on his way back, he stopped in Kyiv and signed it with Kravchuk as well. So technically, Hungary is the first country to recognize Ukraine as an independent state, and Hungary is the first to open a large embassy in Ukraine.

So I have to say that we are clearly at the forefront here as well. And I should also mention that the Visegrád Four, which actually started as the V3, the Visegrád Three, since at that time Czechoslovakia still existed, and the V4 only came into being when Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. This was also initiated by József Antall, who was regularly consulted by the leaders of the great powers when the South Slavic crisis erupted. 

Unfortunately, his advice was not taken at first, yet he warned them in the beginning that this region would become a conflict center for Europe and that they need to devote serious attention to it as soon as possible, because it could develop into a very serious conflict. But let me tell you a story about this. President Bush Sr. called József Antall to get informed about the situation in Yugoslavia, and it is perhaps well known that they always agree on the duration of such meetings in advance. According to the original agreement, this was supposed to be a 20-minute conversation. After 20 minutes, the American president was informed that the time was up and that they should stop.

The person who informed him could be heard on the phone, so we know this, and these conversations are always recorded in writing, and the American president said that he doesn’t care, that he is “listening to Jóska and taking notes on what he says.” So, in my opinion, it is all the more commendable that the president of a world power takes notes on what the prime minister of such a small country says, because he considers those insights so important. I don’t think I need to evaluate this any further. So that’s about it on foreign policy, but I have to mention one more thing, because one of the main accusations in regards to foreign affairs was that we deeply damaged Hungarian-Soviet relations.

Which, if you think about it, is an interesting relationship, just think of 1956, when Russian-Soviet troops were stationed here completely illegally between 1955 and 1957, since the peace treaties ending World War II stipulated that Soviet troops had to withdraw from Hungarian territory once Austria’s independence and sovereignty were achieved, which happened in 1955, so at that moment they had to withdraw from Hungarian territory, and in fact the legal legitimacy of their presence here was only established by a treaty signed in 1957. So there is a two-year gap in the story, during which Budapest was made into a shooting gallery in 1956, etc. I mention this because the Antall government inherited the issue of the withdrawal of soviet troops.

I have already mentioned that there were a few perennial issues that came up at almost every government meeting. One of these was the withdrawal of Soviet troops. An agreement and a treaty were signed in the spring of 1989, during the previous government’s term.

It was being implemented in multiple stages, and we essentially inherited this situation. Very serious negotiations were underway regarding the withdrawal of troops. Not so much about the withdrawal itself, but rather about the fact that the Russians are demanding very serious financial compensation and reparations in exchange for the withdrawal of troops.

They were asking for 50 billion forints or more, which the Hungarian side, under Antall József, was not really willing to pay. Apart from the fact that there were no funds for this, there was another reason for this, based in international law, and a much more serious argument. I have already mentioned the reason regarding international law.

The more serious argument, however, was that the Soviets would have asked for this relatively huge sum in order to leave airports here, leave Soviet barracks here, leave some 161 Soviet military objects here with buildings and infrastructure, and in return they are asking for this huge sum. Yes, but it soon became clear, and it was common knowledge, that these facilities were in a terrible state in terms of environmental damage. Just to mention the Gödöllő Palace, which was used as a horse stable, the rooms of the palace itself, and there were airports that were so contaminated with fuel that the ground could catch fire and burn.

So the Soviet troops stationed here caused terrible environmental damage, and during the negotiations we tried to counter the Soviet demands by pointing out this environmental damage, with the clear aim of getting a zero-sum deal out of this. However, they remained adamant, so much so that when Yeltsin came to Hungary in November 1992, while the withdrawal of troops was essentially complete, as the last Soviet soldier left Hungarian territory on June 19, 1991, nevertheless, the dispute over financial matters was still ongoing. Even at the last minute, the Soviet delegation still considered this to be the most important issue, namely that the Hungarian side should pay a very large sum, but József Antall, in a personal meeting with Yeltsin, managed to get Yeltsin to say no to his generals, and he finally agreed to this zero-sum solution. However, there is a little background to this, which I must mention.

In August 1991, the coup attempt in Moscow took place. When Yeltsin and his people were surrounded in the Soviet parliament, a state of civil war essentially broke out.

Gorbachev was taken into custody, and it was József Antall who immediately assured Yeltsin and his government of his support, as the hardliners were the ones to launch an attack against Yeltsin and Gorbachev. Essentially, if they had won, the process that began with perestroika could have been reversed, and it is conceivable that the entire democratic process that had begun in the Soviet Union would have been reversed. József Antall, regardless of the fact that he was aware of this, and he said so many times, that the Russian bear would never really give up its role as a world power, and he could point to hundreds of years of history to prove that this would always be its ambition. If we think about it, this is still present in the Russian leadership today.

Despite this, he wanted a completely friendly and mutually cooperative relationship, and he essentially succeeded in establishing this with the Soviet side. Yeltsin, for example, mentioned it several times and did not forget that József Antall was the second foreign leader in the world to call him during the siege and assure him of his support, i.e. during the coup period. He took this as a gesture of goodwill, which he ultimately repaid with a public apology to Hungary in November 1992, at the Hungary Assembly in the Hungarian Parliament. 

There, he asked for forgiveness for the events of ‘56, and he did so spectacularly and publicly. That is how badly Hungarian-Soviet relations had been damaged.

Moving on to other topics which, I repeat, provided the Antall government with a constant, if not entirely justified, target for attack. I have already touched on the issue of the media at length, but I must mention one or two aspects related to this. One of these, which is a bit of a side issue, is the creation of Duna TV.

We were subjected to terrible attacks for even establishing the Hungária Foundation, which then operated Duna TV, whose sole and fundamental purpose was to provide information to Hungarians living beyond the border, in Hungarian, and for which appropriate funding had to be found. We found a legal loophole, literally, because at that time there was still a frequency moratorium, which meant that it was not possible to establish other TV channels. For example, commercial TV, public service TV, although it was not called that at the time, so basically no media was allowed outside of state radio and television, because there was a frequency moratorium, but this was broadcast via satellite, and therefore had nothing to do with the moratorium.

Many saw this as nationalism, many saw it as revisionism, i.e. a questioning of the Treaty of Trianon, but it is clear that it had nothing to do with that. It was clearly related to the statement József Antall made, that was also the subject of constant attacks, if not the reason for them, but they used it. József Antall stated in his maiden speech as prime minister, and earlier at the MDF national assembly, and when it was already clear that he would become prime minister, that he wanted to be the prime minister of 10 million Hungarians in practice, but 15 million Hungarians in spirit.

Interestingly, his opponents always omitted this one word from the quote, the word “in spirit,” and this is precisely why they were able to twist the sentence to mean that József Antall essentially wanted to call Trianon into question and restore the previous borders. József Antall did indeed place great emphasis on protecting the rights of Hungarians living across the border, as I mentioned in connection with the basic cooperation agreements concluded with neighboring countries, but the creation of Duna TV also clearly served this purpose. Moving on, I have not yet mentioned the closure or completion of this issue in relation to the media situation.

Sometime in 1992, there was a state audit of Hungarian Television, which found very serious irregularities, and it was literally stated in the ÁSZ (Állami Számvevőszék – State Audit Office) report, signed by the ÁSZ president, that there were indications of criminal activity. Interestingly, the ÁSZ did not send this to the police, as it should have done as a state institution, but to the government, and the government stood there with a question mark over its head, wondering what to do with it, when it was written in black and white that very serious budgetary crimes had been committed, ranging from embezzlement, to many others. 

For this reason, the government ordered the Ministry of Finance to conduct its own investigation, which essentially confirmed everything that was in the ÁSZ report, and for this reason, a disciplinary investigation was launched against the president of Hungarian Television, which he personally took great offense to, of course, while the opposition at the time treated the matter as if it had been initiated solely because the Antall government wanted to crush the public service media, and bring it to its knees. This disciplinary procedure was eventually concluded without any decision being taken, because on January 6, 1993, if I remember the exact date correctly, Csaba Gombár unexpectedly submitted his resignation in writing, and a few hours later that same day, Elemér Hankiss also submitted his resignation.

This came to light during a government meeting, and interestingly, some members of the government immediately responded that the prime minister should accept this in writing and make it public. I took the position that since resignation is a unilateral legal declaration, there was no need for any spectacular acceptance of it, so it was obvious that they had resigned, their mandate had ended, and they had ceased to hold office, and the prime minister informed the president of the republic of this. At that point, after a very long delay and a very lengthy and tense debate, two vice-presidents were appointed for the two media outlets, Gábor Nalik and László Csúcs, who, to put it mildly, were received with hostility by the organizations in question.

When László Csúcs, for example, went to Hungarian Radio on his first day of work, several people spat at him in the corridor, which is an interesting reception for the head of an organization. So these new vice presidents were greeted and awaited by a highly charged political atmosphere, which, while it does not excuse their later actions, is perhaps understandable from a human point of view. When the two presidents, Hankiss and Gombár Csaba, whom I mentioned, resigned, and the new vice presidents essentially became the presidents, the acting presidents of the two institutions, and in my personal opinion, they took some very bad steps, which in retrospect perhaps confirmed all the accusations that had previously sounded completely unrealistic.

That is all I have to say about the media. I must mention one more thing, which in some ways ties back to privatization, but is definitely relevant to the media and the press: in the context of spontaneous privatization, the county newspapers, for example, were successfully taken out of state ownership and placed in private hands. Thanks to this, by the time the Antall government organized itself properly, it had no legal means to prevent this, and all county newspapers ended up in hands that were not exactly close to the government in a political sense, and they clearly echoed the opposition’s political behavior and opinion of the vast majority of national, daily newspapers. There was only one daily newspaper that remained that explicitly stated that it was not a government newspaper and was not close to the government, and that was the Pesti Hírlap. There was also a completely failed attempt by the Antal government to create the Új Magyarország (New Hungary) daily newspaper, which was clearly not successful, partly because it did not have adequate resources, and partly because by then the media fronts had already been established and public opinion had been so thoroughly swayed that it could not really have any positive effect or role in media relations, which, as I have already mentioned, but must refer back to, can be traced back to the Roundtable Talks, where the 1/5 subcommittee, which dealt with the media and was led by opposition roundtable representative Miklós Haraszti, deliberately did not want to achieve any results, and they maintained this position throughout those four years because the established media relations system suited them perfectly, as did the political embeddedness that was characteristic of the Hungarian press and media at the time.